Two certificates, or more
It never fails.
Finish a blog post, get it posted, sit back, and somebody is sure to do it.
Somebody will remind The Legal Genealogist of questions that woulda-coulda-shoulda been addressed the first time around.
Yesterday was no exception.
No sooner had “Death in the wrong place”1 been published on the blog when long-time reader John Roose had just a couple of questions which, if I’d thought about it, should have had answers included yesterday.
First, he wondered, if Montana was issuing death certificates for people who were being buried in Montana but who had died elsewhere, doesn’t this mean that there are going to be two death certificates for any such person? One in Montana and one in the jurisdiction in which the person died?
Oh yes. There sure will be. As a matter of fact, the individual who originally posted the question on Facebook about Montana issuing a death certificate for a man who died in Minnesota was able to find the Minnesota death certificate for that individual.
And, of course, a good genealogist is going to get both. Because there’s a very good chance that information recorded on one such certificate won’t be on the other.
Remember the way the Montana regulation said the death certificate there was to be filled out: with information from the transit permit that accompanied the body from the original jurisdiction.2 Anything not recorded on that shipping document wouldn’t make it onto the death certificate.
Looking again at those Beaverhead County examples, it’s clear that not everything we’d want to know as genealogists made it onto the Montana certificates. Frank Birrer’s Montana death certificate didn’t identify his mother, or his exact date of birth, for example.3 Maybe his Washington State death certificate didn’t either, but I’d sure want to look.
And remember as well that every state will handle this issue of an out-of-state burial differently. Not all of them will issue death certificates in the burial state at all. This is a matter of state law, and it won’t always be the same as it was in Montana.
Second, John wanted to know, how would you locate the burial place from the certificate issued in the place where the person died or the death location from the certificate issued in the place where the person was buried?
Now that really should be easy — because each certificate should have that information.
• The death certificate where the person died should state what was being done with the remains: burial or cremation; when and where; the identity of the funeral director and the like. Certainly by the 1940s — when the certificates we were looking at yesterday were issued — the standard forms called for that information. And remember, there had been a recommended standard death certificate form as far back as 1900.4
• The death certificate where the burial was to take place should identify the place of death. That’s pretty basic information and none of the certificates I saw yesterday omitted that rather critical bit of data.
But then John noted that that didn’t seem to be univerally true: his own father’s death certificate, issued where he died in North Carolina, didn’t mention that the burial was out of state. It did give the name of the cemetery but didn’t bother mentioning that the cemetery was in Pennsylvania.
Wait a minute.
I’ve got a lot of North Carolina lines in my ancestry and have looked at a lot of North Carolina death certificates. In fact, North Carolina death certificates are online at Ancestry. And I was pretty sure that data should be there.
I quickly found John’s father’s death certificate, and it said right out that the burial was in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. I pointed that out to John.
Nope, he said. Not on his copy.
You know where this is headed, right?
What John had in his and the family’s possession was yet another flavor of death certificate.
It was typed on a form labeled “Certified Certificate of Death,” with a raised seal — from the county where John’s father died. Perfectly legal, good for all the things we need death certificates for, like opening an estate, or handling insurance claims, or getting bank accounts turned over.
But it was not an exact copy of the document that went to the Bureau of Vital Statistics in the state capital of Raleigh with all the information we might want on it.
Among the key differences:
• The county certificate doesn’t mention the decedent was married or give the widow’s maiden name; the state certificate does.
• The county certificate doesn’t say what the decedent did for a living; the state certificate does.
• The county certificate doesn’t identify the funeral home or the location of the cemetery; the state certificate does.
• And the critical piece for us as genealogists — the county certificate doesn’t say who the informants were: who provided the data about the death or about the family information; the state certificate does.
So there may not be two death certificates in the case of a death here and a burial there. There may be three death certificates.
And as careful researchers trying to do our reasonably exhaustive research, we’re going to want to get our hot little hands on every one of them.
SOURCES
- Judy G. Russell, “Death in the wrong place,” The Legal Genealogist, posted 21 Jan 2015 (https://www.legalgenealogist.com/blog : accessed 22 Jan 2015). ↩
- Public Health Laws and Regulations, State of Montana, Bulletin of the State Board of Health (Helena: State Board of Health, 1936), 62-63; digital images, Internet Archive (http://www.archive.org : accessed 20 Jan 2015). ↩
- Montana Bureau of Vital Statistics, death certificate no. 2788 (1943), Frank P. Birrer; digital images, “Montana, Beaverhead County Records, 1862-2009,” FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org : accessed 20 Jan 2015). ↩
- James A. Weed, “Vital Statistics in the United States: Preparing for the Next Century,” Population Index 61 (Winter 1995): 527-529; Office of Population Research, Princeton University; HTML version, Population Index -on the Web (http://popindex.princeton.edu/ : accessed 22 Jan 2015). ↩
My father-in-law died recently. He died in Madrid, Spain, so we have a death record from Madrid. He died as an American citizen (although he was born in Spain), so we have a CRODA from the US embassy in Spain = Consular record of death abroad. He was also issued a Puerto Rican death certificate (I’m not sure why) because he was a resident there, owned a home, and this record was used to notify the US social security, his bank, etc. of his death. I’m not sure that in the future anyone would know to look in all three places for his death record, but that’s the story.
They’ll know to look there because, thank heavens, he had a competent genealogist as a daughter-in-law, Heather, and you’ll carefully document all of this!
Thanks for this post Judy. Excellent points and more to ponder as we do our research.
Groan! I have relatives who died in Califonia and are buried in Missouri.
And I just discovered a grandmother with Two SS numbers! What is the procedure for straightening that out? This may be why SS couldn’t find her records I requested.
There probably isn’t any procedure for straightening out two SS numbers for a person who’s deceased. The Social Security Administration has enough trouble with people who are still living.
This certainly raises some interesting questions. My grandmother died unexpectedly- she was in her 80s but in good health until a sudden infection. Her second husband was buried in the county in which they had lived, but family knew that she had a plot next to her first husband in another state (she was widowed young), and that she wanted to be buried there. The cemetary was notified by phone. Some of the family had driven over for the funeral. When they left, they loaded Grandma’s casket in the back of a station wagon, and drove straight through, an 800 mile drive through a lot of mountains. I know they did not have a transit permit, and I am pretty sure that one was legally required. They didn’t have time to get one and they didn’t have time to wait. The family sure didn’t have the money to ship the casket. An aunt told me she figured that is why they drove straight through- they wanted to be there by the next day, before someone could ask questions. Now I am wondering what kind of “adjustments” (if any) were made in the receiving state. And I think I am going to have to find out.
And you’re going to share the story with the rest of us when you do find out, right? 🙂
I have a lot of people in my tree who died somewhere else and also have one or more records in Massachusetts because they were buried here and/or because they usually lived here and so Massachusetts was notified of their death. In some cases the other location wasn’t keeping governmental records at the time or they were destroyed in the interim, so for those, the Massachusetts record(s) is/are the only known extant governmental record(s) for their death and/or burial.
I also have a fun case in my tree where an American couple married while in London, England, and I have the local London marriage record, the UK governmental marriage record, and a copy of the letter the consulate sent to the US State Department verifying their marriage abroad.
This is not unlike marriage records. Especially in the early days, and depending on which state’s records you are searching, you can find a handful of marriage records. Apparently both Intentions and actual marriage records were sometimes recorded in the county where the marriage took place, as well as the counties of residence of both parties. If the parties lived in different counties before marriage, you can end up with a lot of records for one event. It isn’t always easy, unless you can find an original record (not just an index!) to figure out the actual marriage date—and sometimes that is an educated guess because the date given may be the date of the record and not the date of the event!
Too true, Mary Ann, except of course that in the family we share we more often end up with NO records!
That’s true, Judy, but I hold out eternal hope that we just haven’t looked in the right place yet!!?
From your keyboard to God’s eyes, Mary Ann! We could sure use some pointers, couldn’t we???
Yes we could, Judy!
How fascinating! Your reference to a transit permit reminds me of the example (in 10 Tips for Wills, Intestacies and Probate) of Magdalene NIELSON, late of New York USA, whose Supreme Court file at Queensland State Archives (Australia) includes her death certificate from America (giving her age, marital status, occupation, birthplace, how long in USA, how long in New York City, names and birthplaces of her father and mother, her place and cause of death, and class of dwelling) and a transit permit for her body to go to Germany, stating the exact burial place there. The file (which is in Australia because she lived there for a while) says that her husband was in Copenhagen, Denmark.
Now that is just about as cool an example as it’s possible to have, Judy! Thanks!
Yes, it’s amazing, isn’t it?! I keep mentioning it, hoping that there’s a descendant out there somewhere who’d love to find that file.
Criminy, I’d love to have that file and I’m not even related to her! What a wonderful find.
Judy,
I want to let you know that three of your blog posts are listed in today’s Fab Finds post at http://janasgenealogyandfamilyhistory.blogspot.com/2015/01/follow-friday-fab-finds-for-january-23.html
Have a great weekend!
Thanks so much, Jana!
Frank Pirrer’s death information can be viewed at Washington Digital Archives (http://www.digitalarchives.wa.gov/Record/View/CD5F614E8E34EDFCDC4BAED3F60C74F5). The original certificate (and its image) is restricted as is true in many jurisdictions. While it does include his parents’ birthplace and mother’s maiden name, it does not indicate if there was a spouse. It does not give Frank’s birthplace (his parents were born in Germany), but it does give his burial place as Dillon, MT.
Very cool, Sue! Thanks for providing the rest of this story!
Judy,
My brick wall 3x GGF died in NJ but was buried in NY. I never even thought to look there! Your blog is genius, as ever.
🙂
R
No guarantees that New York will have death certificates for those who died out of state — everything depends on local law at the time — but burial permits or transit permits are a real possibility.
Virtual high five, Judy!
🙂